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Omega Letter - Commentary Discussion

A Little Leavenů
Posted By: Anton
5/29/2017 9:21:00 AM

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Original Commentary Link
37 Shout AMEN!Amen ~ 3 PrayingPraying

Member Comments:

Excellent and Amen Pete!Can we go Home now?Pentecost is looming.The Spirit and the bride say;Come Lord Jesus.Let us receive our full Redemption.
Anton.


Reply # 1 - ReplyTo ID: 14309


Posted By: Gracemer -
Date: 6/1/2017 11:11:03 AM
Shout AMEN!Amen ~ PrayingPraying

Comments: Pete, what shall we make of Romans 9? I don't think this is a topic we can unpack in the comments section. Granted, there are verses that would support your view, but like I said previously, they can be explained within the context of sovereignty, whereas the sovereignty verses cannot be explained away with free will logic. Shelley, it does feel like free will; it is free will, but only after regeneration. Since the fall of Adam, man's will only goes in one direction--enmity towards God, and God must first deal with that because we can't, being spiritually dead. I don't advocate Calvinism. I advocate a thorough study of scripture. Calvin just did a bang up job of explaining what is written, so it's easier to call it Calvinism. I don't deny the dude had other problems though.
Reply # 2 - ReplyTo ID: 14308


Posted By: pete -
Date: 6/1/2017 6:32:13 AM
2 Shout AMEN!Amen ~ PrayingPraying

Comments:

But I'll leave you with this excellent example from Dr. Harry Ironside, that maybe puts this into a little bit of perspective.

“This illustration is of the sinner coming to the door of salvation (John 10:9). Above the door was a sign which says, "Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Revelation 22:17). The sinner responds to this gracious invitation, trusts Christ and he is gloriously saved. He now turns around and looks at the door through which he had just entered. He sees above the door another sign which says, "Chosen...in Him before the foundation of the world" (Ephesian 1:4). Both are true. Both are taught in the Bible. Both must be believed.”


Reply # 3 - ReplyTo ID: 14307


Posted By: ShelleyMessenger -
Date: 5/31/2017 3:29:02 PM
1 Shout AMEN!Amen ~ PrayingPraying

Comments:

I think that God knows everything about everything, even who will be saved; but I think that WE see it as our free will.  To me, that is the simple view of it and one that I can understand. 


Reply # 4 - ReplyTo ID: 14306


Posted By: Carolee -
Date: 5/31/2017 9:26:27 AM
Shout AMEN!Amen ~ PrayingPraying

Comments:

I've always considered myself a Calvinist . . . most probably a 3-pointer . . . because I consider predestination and free will totally compatible based on God's . . .

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are
not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isaiah 46:10

i.e. He knew exactly absolutely everything we're were going to do with our free will even before we were born physically!!!


Reply # 5 - ReplyTo ID: 14305


Posted By: pete -
Date: 5/31/2017 9:03:26 AM
2 Shout AMEN!Amen ~ 1 PrayingPraying

Comments:

Gracemer,

You had mentioned in a previous comment not to call Calvinism, Calvinism. But rather, to call it "unmerited grace". Similiarly, you addressed Arminianism as "free will salvation or anything else you like where man must make a contribution towards his salvation."

I believe this is a mischaracterization of the position, or at least as I see it.

I believe man has free will, eternal security in salvation, and that God is completely sovereign.

What Dave Hunt connects the dots on in regards to Calvinism and Reformed Theology (as they are part and parcel), is that Reformed Theology carries over with it much baggage from its theological roots (Protestant Reformation came out of the Roman Catholic Church).

While there are many things within Calvinism/Reformed theology that are correct, there are still things that are wrong, which is why I called it stealth and leaven. I never said it was completely unorthodox, but there are enough things in it that are wrong or misguided, that it begins to pollute other areas of a believer's understanding.

"Unmerited grace" as you call it, ignores the plethora of passages that speak to man's/nation's free will in this grand scheme we call life.

Jesus stated in Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how often I...but you were not willing...

John 3:16-For God so loved the world that He gave His begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER...

Acts 26:28: Agrippa to Paul..."You almost persuade me to become a Christian"

etc. etc.

Again, I do believe God draws men to Himself, but I believe he uses people and circumstances that He puts in their life to ultimately bring them to that decision. It has to be their decision, because if God chooses that for them, then it is no longer their decision, but one forced upon them.   


Reply # 6 - ReplyTo ID: 14304


Posted By: Gracemer -
Date: 5/30/2017 7:05:33 PM
1 Shout AMEN!Amen ~ PrayingPraying

Comments: Liz, I'm very glad you found freedom in God's sovereignty and I liked the part about MacArthur and what he said. It does seem as though there are 2 themes running throughout. Sovereignty can explain both teachings where free will salvation cannot. My fear was not measuring up and that I would be left behind or lose my salvation...a view reinforced by way too many churches. I'm finally free of that and from thinking I had something in me that others did not. Happy to hear you're enjoying that link. Custance is terrific.
Reply # 7 - ReplyTo ID: 14303


Posted By: DonaldPalmer -
Date: 5/30/2017 12:33:41 PM
3 Shout AMEN!Amen ~ PrayingPraying

Comments:

Revelation 3:20 

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock: If any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him and will sup with him and he with me." 

This seems clear to me that the man has to "open the door".


Reply # 8 - ReplyTo ID: 14302


Posted By: pete -
Date: 5/30/2017 12:06:24 PM
Shout AMEN!Amen ~ 1 PrayingPraying

Comments:

Shelley,

Andy Woods has done some excellent work on this.

 

http://www.spiritandtruth.org/teaching/topics_by_andy_woods/42_Lordship_Salvation/20120610_lordship_salvation_slides.pdf?x=x

Hope this helps

 


Reply # 9 - ReplyTo ID: 14301


Posted By: ShelleyB -
Date: 5/30/2017 10:37:52 AM
Shout AMEN!Amen ~ PrayingPraying

Comments: Pete, I have a question about Lordship salvation. I am guessing you are referring to John MacArthur as the preacher of this doctrine (or false doctrine). I respect John MacArthur and have learned much from him. Can you list any resources on this subject that would help me to understand it more fully? I'm with you on Calvinism/Arminianism. Thank you so much for all you do. Hope you had a meaningful Memorial Day. God Bless.
Reply # 10 - ReplyTo ID: 14300


Posted By: Linda Ihinger -
Date: 5/30/2017 9:00:58 AM
4 Shout AMEN!Amen ~ PrayingPraying

Comments: Absolutely stunning! Out did yourself on this one too Pete! Beautifully truthful and so easy to understand!!
Reply # 11 - ReplyTo ID: 14299


Posted By: StephenSmith2017530 -
Date: 5/30/2017 8:53:09 AM
5 Shout AMEN!Amen ~ PrayingPraying

Comments: Pete, I really appreciate the time you take in writing these articles. What you write/teach, I know to be true, because it aligns with what is already written in the Word. And in those times that you share your opinion, you make it known that it is your opinion, and not doctrine. I appreciate these articles, and look forward to them.
Reply # 12 - ReplyTo ID: 14298


Posted By: LizGillum -
Date: 5/30/2017 8:02:55 AM
1 Shout AMEN!Amen ~ PrayingPraying

Comments: First I would like to say what a blessing Omega Newsletter and the people who contribute to it are to me, thank you.
Secondly thank you Gracemer for sharing that link I am enjoying it very much.
I would like to add my thoughts on the sovereignty of God and man's free will to this discussion. The churches I attended in my area taught the Armenian doctrine, that's all I heard. That doctrine laid a heavy burden on me because it said that if man was responsible for part of his salvation then I as a Christian was responsible for "saving" people by how well I articulated the gospel to them. Whether that's what was intended or not that's where I was. I carried the burden of my failures to convince anyone of the truth of the gospel as a very heavy cross indeed. Then I started listening to other preachers, like John MacArthur and realized that that burden was not mine to carry, I couldn't "save" anyone. I was to plant and water but God saves. What a joyous relief that was to get rid of that burden.
Then the issue of free will came up, how to reconcile that with Gods sovereignty. As I read the Bible, commentaries and listened to preachers I was stuck between two seemingly (as John MacArthur said) truths running parallel to each other. Then a solution presented itself to me. It's all about our nature and as an animal lover the analogy of a wild animal came to me. A wild animal has a wild nature and has free will within that nature. There may be some restraints on that nature from within or without but the nature never changes. So it is, I reasoned with fallen man. We are free within our fallen nature but that nature is so fallen, as the Bible so clearly points out, that it can never act contrary to itself by choosing God. Only when a new nature is given by God can we then, acting by our free will from that nature, choose God. Free will is acting from within the confines of our nature, fallen or the new nature given by God.
I would welcome thoughts from others on this idea.
Reply # 13 - ReplyTo ID: 14297


Posted By: Gracemer -
Date: 5/29/2017 7:00:00 PM
2 Shout AMEN!Amen ~ PrayingPraying

Comments: Let's not call it Calvinism. Let's call it the gospel of unmerited grace. And call Arminianism free will salvation or anything else you like where man must make a contribution to his salvation, whatever form that contribution takes. There's no middle ground. It's either free or not free. Man contributes nothing or he contributes something. It's that simple. I don't claim that people who think their faith saved them aren't actually born again, but they tend to fear loss and are constantly looking at their performance and offer dead works to God to insure their position, which they believe they can lose. All the glory isn't God's; they reserve just a tiny little bit for themselves. It makes for a messed up walk and a shaky faith which is why I think this is a very important subject that all mature believers should prove to themselves from the scriptures.
Reply # 14 - ReplyTo ID: 14296


Posted By: pete -
Date: 5/29/2017 3:18:32 PM
6 Shout AMEN!Amen ~ PrayingPraying

Comments:

Gracemer,

I've known about Calvinism long before I discovered Dave Hunt. I don't care for it as a system that seems to dismiss the entire point by which God gave man free will. If it wasn't free will, then God would have prevented Adam and Eve from ever having the opportunity to ever eat from the 'forbidden fruit' in the first place. But I digress.

For the record, I am not an Arminianist, nor am I a Calvinist. I am somewhere in the middle.

Let me conclude by saying what I truly hold too, that is God is sovereign, and man has free will. To try and reduce God's logic and purposes any further, into bite-size pieces, fit for human consumption and understanding, is why Calvinist and everyone else has been squabbling these last four hundred plus years.

Personally, I believe it has done more harm than good and caused much unnecessary division in the body of Christ.


Reply # 15 - ReplyTo ID: 14295


Posted By: Gracemer -
Date: 5/29/2017 2:20:05 PM
Shout AMEN!Amen ~ PrayingPraying

Comments: Pete,if what you know about Calvinism is derived from Dave Hunt's book, it's no wonder you hold that opinion. Dave Hunt, while an expert on several issues (I own most of his books), "What Love is This" contains several errors and misrepresentations and shouldn't be anybody's go to book on the topic. Please read at least Part VI of Custance's paper. There are so many more out there as well. Jesus, the greatest "Calvinist," made it clear in when praying in Gethsemene:
"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." John 17:9--read it all in context. People fail to think through the implications of the sovereignty verses in the NT, several of which are contained in the Gospel of John. Amazing grace isn't so amazing when man must make a contribution to obtain it.
Reply # 16 - ReplyTo ID: 14294


Posted By: JudithShell -
Date: 5/29/2017 1:08:20 PM
1 Shout AMEN!Amen ~ PrayingPraying

Comments: Thanks! Great expository on false teachings and deceptions. I'm on Twitter and I have been getting inundated from a newish Chinese cult called The Church of Almighty God. Huge monster taking over China. Next step of Satan to receive after Islam and Mormans. They have put down our Bible as outdated and replaced it with "new works". Their logo is a quarter moon swirl with a star and a small tiny cross. No mention of Jesus, but only " Eastern Lightening". Help.
Reply # 17 - ReplyTo ID: 14293


Posted By: pete -
Date: 5/29/2017 12:04:46 PM
3 Shout AMEN!Amen ~ 1 PrayingPraying

Comments:

Gracemer, I know what Calvinism is. I refer you to the link in the article, of you can google/YouTube "What Love Is This?" By Dave Hunt. I think you may be surprised 


Reply # 18 - ReplyTo ID: 14292


Posted By: Gracemer -
Date: 5/29/2017 11:17:34 AM
1 Shout AMEN!Amen ~ PrayingPraying

Comments: Pete, I don't think you understand what Calvinism is. Most Christians don't because our churches teach heretical Arminianism. Calvin's teachings rely on scripture, Arminianism is a form of humanism.

This is the best work on the subject of the sovereignty of God in salvation that I have ever read. It's by Arthur C. Custance. Like most well written works, it is easy to understand. You will never again think of Calvinism as some out of whack doctrine and return to the free, fresh joy of salvation. Sovereignty may well be the the "meatiest" doctrine in the Bible. It is also the most loving and comforting. http://www.custance.org/Library/SOG/Part_I/Chapter1.html